Treating Your Business As A Science Experiment For Success
Treating Your Business As A Science Experiment For Success with Jillian Leslie

153: Treating Your Business As A Science Experiment For Success with Jillian Leslie

Have you ever thought of treating your business as a science experiment for success and using that mindset for business growth?

Jillian Leslie has. In fact, she helped create a product that helps other entrepreneurs test and experiment while making money, one download at a time.

We’re not talking pennies per download, either. With MiloTreeCart you can monetize ebooks, courses, videos, workshops, or whatever else you want, including free content you’ve already created. It’s super easy to use and will help you level up your business in the process.

In this episode of Time to Level Up, you’ll learn about how applying a scientific experiment approach to business strategies can make you money easier and faster. Jillian also reveals how you can use this approach if you have a service-based business.

What’s Covered in This Episode About Business As A Science Experiment

2:57 – Jillian’s serial entrepreneurial background and the origins of MiloTreeCart

8:47 – How a food blogger used MiloTreeCart to make money from free recipes and level up

12:34 – How a crafter makes $5,000 a month working one hour a week

13:57 – Jillian’s contrarian view on creating courses to sell

19:46 – The benefits of treating your business as a science experiment

27:41 – Why getting uncomfortable is a key cog to success

30:01 – An example of why you’re not your business

36:27 – What thinking big really means for Jillian

About Jillian Leslie

Jillian Leslie is a serial entrepreneur and podcaster.

In 2009, she and her husband started Catch My Party, a website for people to share party ideas, tips, and photos. Since then, they’ve grown it into the largest party ideas site on the web.

In 2016, Jillian and her husband, created MiloTree, a smart pop-up app to help bloggers and creative entrepreneurs grow their social media followers on Instagram, TikTok, Pinterest, Facebook, and YouTube and email lists.

With the success of MiloTree, in 2018, Jillian launched her podcast, The Blogger Genius Podcast, to help her community grow their online businesses. She interviews successful bloggers and industry experts to explore what’s working NOW in the world of online entrepreneurship.

Now, Jillian and her husband have launched MiloTreeCart, the easiest tool for online entrepreneurs to use to sell digital products (ebooks, workshops, coaching, memberships, mini courses, etc.) to their audiences. It is built for creatives who hate technology.

Jillian received her BA and MBA from Stanford University. She currently resides in Austin, TX, with her husband, David, and her daughter, Lainey.


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Quotes from this Episode of Time to Level Up

“Digital downloads is something where you can make a couple of hundred dollars pretty easily and start building that trust factor.” – Jillian Leslie

“B- work that’s turned in is better than A+ work that never gets turned in.” – Andrea Liebross

“Nobody’s thinking about you because we’re too busy thinking about ourselves. That’s perfect for sales.” – Jillian Leslie

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Andrea Liebross: Welcome to the Time to Level Up Podcast. I'm your host, Andrea Liebross. Each week, I focus on the systems, strategy, and big thinking you need to CEO your business and life to the next level. Are you ready? Let's go.

Hello, my friends, welcome back to the Time to Level Up Podcast. Today's episode really interested me. I learned a ton from this episode from Jillian Leslie of MiloTreeCart. MiloTreeCart is a product that is super easy to use and helps you make money on the internet. It helps you monetize downloads, courses, mini-courses, or whatever you've got out there going and it is super easy to use as she explains.

But I learned a lot about that business in this episode but I also learned a lot about let's just try something, let's just see what happens, kind of that science experiment thinking that I talk about a lot with my clients. In fact, I was talking about it today with a client who was debating whether or not to change how she refers to herself in her business with prospective clients.

She's trying to get really good at letting them understand what she does, which is kind of complicated and not so straightforward, by playing around with different titles, “I'm a [blank]. I'm a [blank].” She wants to see what resonates. That's like a science experiment.

Today, Jill and I talk a lot about science experiments, just trying things out, and not getting so caught up in whether or not it works or it doesn't work. Sit back, buckle up, and listen in to my conversation with Jillian Leslie.

Hey, Time to Level Up listeners. Welcome back to the podcast. I am thrilled today to have Jillian Leslie with me. I'm going to let her, as I usually do, introduce herself. But I think here's the thing, which really intrigues me about the discussion we're going to have, no matter what business you are in, no matter what industry you are in, I know, because I talk to you all, that you are all really interested in figuring out how to create other sources of revenue, and maybe your main source of revenue, but other sources of revenue that are different from your maybe main product offering.

You're trying to monetize things, you're trying to monetize your own intellectual property, you're trying to monetize things that you've created, and Jillian is an expert on this. We're going to talk about this and we're going to figure out how to help you make more money. Let's do it. Jillian, introduce yourself. Tell us who you are, what you do, all the things.

Jillian Leslie: Okay. Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm Jillian Leslie and I call myself a serial entrepreneur. In 2009, I built a site with my husband. He's the technologist. We built a site called Catch My Party and we have grown it into the largest party ideas site on the web.

If you are say a mom with young kids, you're planning a party, you go to Pinterest, I promise, you will end up on my site. We give away free printables and it's all user-generated content, meaning people are uploading. By the way, we thought it was going to be for teen girls when we started it, our users were moms.

We initially thought, “Uh-oh, we made a big mistake and we need to delete all this content,” and then we thought to ourselves, “Hey, wait a second, maybe we're on to something. Maybe moms are our audience.” That's always been such a powerful lesson. You are co-creating with your audience, with your customers, so always be listening and always be willing to pivot.

Then we built a pop-up app called MiloTree named after our favorite tree in Hawaii and we built it for ourselves for Catch My Party to grow our Pinterest followers so that we could get Pinterest traffic and it worked. If you go to Catch My Party right now, you'll see it pop up and it'll say something like “Follow us on Pinterest.”

What we did was we thought to ourselves, “Hey, if this works for us, we could roll this out for other bloggers and creators, people who have an online presence,” and it worked for them as well. With MiloTree, our pop-up app, you can grow your followers on TikTok, Pinterest, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and grow your email list.

When we set it up, our intention was this: how can we make it so easy that somebody who's not technical could use this WordPress plug-in and have it working in two minutes?” So we're not going to give you tons of things that you can tweak and stuff, no, you're just going to install it.

Let's say you want to grow Instagram, put your Instagram account in there, and boom, it magically works and pulls in your Instagram posts. That's our philosophy. During the pandemic, we saw this other need because I was coaching a group of bloggers and online entrepreneurs and they wanted to sell stuff.

Andrea Liebross: Give me an example.

Jillian Leslie: Memberships. What they have, let's say, is a Facebook audience. They have a group on Facebook, it's gotten big, and they know that there's money to be had there but they don't know how to get at the money. So I said, “Hey, okay, I'm pretty good with David's help. I can set this up for you. You want to set up a membership, I'll figure out how to do that.”

As I started putting the pieces together, I'm like, “This is too hard,” and I said to David, we had our come-to-Jesus moment of like, “We can help people do this. This should not be that hard. You shouldn't have to be connecting this piece of tech to this piece of tech to this piece of tech.”

Andrea Liebross: Yeah. I call it duct-taping it together.

Jillian Leslie: Yes. We said, “Okay, we're going to work with these people who want to be setting up memberships to this is very much what I'm a big fan of, I call it emergent business building, it's letting it emerge. We're working with these couple bloggers who have these communities, we're building our tech, and we're saying, “What do you think of this? Okay, now, what else would you want? Do we get it this way? How can we make your life easier?”

So we've built this tool called MiloTreeCart and if you go to, you'll see it, what it says is “Sell digital products and services without the headache,” and it says, “Hate technology? This is for you.” We have struck a nerve because the truth is even my husband who's a technologist hates technology, meaning it's hard for him at times too, he's pulling his hair out just like I'm pulling my hair out, he's just more confident about it than I am.

As women, I think we personalize it. I get on calls with people all the time and this is what women say to me, “Tech hates me. I hate tech. Tech is not my friend. I'm not good at it,” and somehow we personalize it. My husband will go, “No, no, no. Tech isn't good at you. Tech is bad. It's complicated. It's not well created. It's not user-friendly.” To take that personalization out so that we don't blame ourselves but we said we could solve this.

Therefore with MiloTreeCart, you can sell unlimited products, digital downloads of any kind. We're going to give you unlimited storage. We're going to deliver your digital download directly to your customer. You can sell memberships with it, workshops with it, coaching with it, and we're going to get you paid.

Because what you said I loved, which is make money, not even say monetize or grow your income, make money. That's what we all want to do. We're not doing businesses because, maybe some of us are but it's not a real business, no, we want to be growing real businesses that make us real money. That is our product called MiloTreeCart.

We're selling it right now as a lifetime deal buy at once and you will own it forever. Your success is our success. That's our feeling. I believe in karma working in the internet for this long. I believe what you put out, you get back.

Andrea Liebross: 100%. I completely agree with you. I've got tons of questions but give us one success story just so we can visualize this.

Jillian Leslie: I have a bunch but I will tell you, people will come back at me and say, “Wait a second, I'm going to sell a $10 ebook,” because I'll say, “Grow your digital product empire,” and they're like, “Come on. You're lying. I'm selling a $10 ebook. That's not going to get me rich,” and I go, “You're right. That's probably not going to get you rich but what gets you rich is starting with the $10 ebook, seeing where you get traction. I call it your mining for gold and seeing where something connects, you start making money, and you start building off of this.”

So a woman food blogger buys MiloTreeCart, she has a Facebook group. She's a gluten-free bread maker. She decided to put together her top recipes and see if she could sell them. By the way, these are all recipes. I say this, these are recipes that already exist on her blog but nobody's going to her blog to go, “Wait a second, I'm buying this thing that already exists for free,” no, you're selling the ease that somebody gets your 10 best recipes.

She goes out to the people in her Facebook group, she sells it, and it works. She turns it on and makes like five sales. I say to her, “You've struggled. People want what you're selling.” Then she says to me, “Should I create another ebook?” and I said, “You could, but again, let's move up that ladder. How about a one-hour paid workshop on Zoom where you teach one thing?” She goes, “Oh, I guess I could try it.” I said, “I have all the materials for you to walk you through how to do this. It's much easier than you think and to see if that will also strike you gold, like you will find some gold.”

I say, “What do people ask you about?” She gave me some specific recipe that she could potentially make and I said, “No, no, no. Let's talk broader. What is a broader question that people ask you?” She goes, “Well, they're interested in starter but there are a million videos on YouTube so that wouldn't work.”

I said, “Hmm. Why don't you test it? First of all, why don't you ask your group and go, ‘Hey, do you want a workshop on starter? Do you want one on cinnamon rolls?’ whatever.” Ultimately, she decided starter, which I think is a really good idea because that's the broadest question, you've got the most people who are asking this question.

Lo and behold, she offers it. I said, “If you get two people to sign up for your workshop,” I don't know how much she's charging, probably $15, $20 a person, “If you get two people, do it, because you're going to record it on Zoom and then you can sell that recording as a mini course, as a one-off, this is like an asset for you.”

Lo and behold, I get an email yesterday that she sold something like five or six. She just posted it and sold it. I said, “Lean in more to sales. Sell, sell, sell,” and lo and behold, it's working. That's an example of how you build your digital product empire.

Where are people making the most money? Memberships, recurring revenue, coaching. Again, getting somebody to pay top dollar for your expertise. Third, workshops so like one-off things that you can then resell as an asset, and then I would say digital downloads is something where you can make a couple of hundred dollars pretty easily and it's a way to start building that trust factor.

Another woman I'll just say who's had success, she's a crafter and she shows up once a week for an hour, crafts with people, and they pay her. What's great about it is when you do a membership, they think they're joining for the content, and in truth, they're really joining for you and the community. She's been able to build this amazing community of people and they stay. They find it soothing and happy. She's making, I don't know, $5,000 a month doing this.

Andrea Liebross: For one hour a week? It's pretty good.

Jillian Leslie: One hour a week. She gives them a list of the craft materials, they get the recording afterwards, but very down and dirty and easy. I think she does it all in a private Facebook group.

Andrea Liebross: So cool. How did people find her link to join this thing?

Jillian Leslie: She too has a big email list I think and has been crafting on Facebook. She was putting out free content and this is where people go, “I'm putting out all this free content? I want to get paid for this. If you have that ding-ding-ding-ding-ding, that is where it's time to start figuring out how to monetize that.

Andrea Liebross: Gotcha. Okay, this is super interesting. Tell me courses. That's different than a membership, that's different than a workshop, what's your thought on courses? Because I have a few clients that are creating courses.

Jillian Leslie: I'm going to be a contrarian.

Andrea Liebross: Tell me. I want to know.

Jillian Leslie: My recommendation is do not build a course unless you have pre-sold it and gotten five sales. Because you go, “I got this great idea for a course,” and you go, “Oh, I'm going to ask my audience,” and you run it by let's say your close friends or people in your audience, whatever, and they all are going to raise their hand and say, “I will totally buy your course,” and you go, “Yes, I'm on to something because I know what my audience wants from me. I know what I know, I can teach it to you, and you're going to want this.”

I cannot tell you how many times I have talked to people who have gone off and spent six months working on their course, recording their videos, creating their PDFs, the whole thing, packaging it up, coming to sell it, getting two sales, and being completely deflated and feeling like that was a big waste of my time. The emotional pain is really hard to come back from.

This is where I say, “Unless you have pre-sold it, people have taken out their credit card and said I will buy this, do not trust them.” Because it's too easy, again, especially as women, and I'm talking on average, we feel really “good” working on our business and building a course in the background. This is where I go, “Do it as a live paid workshop. Do three of them, bundle them together, and sell them as a mini course.”

My new advice. I just actually had coffee with a friend. I was racing back to do this recording. She wants to start helping people get healthier. Actually, she has the APOE4 gene, which is that Alzheimer's gene so she wants to help people not be freaked out by it but recognize that with exercise, diet, all that stuff, it's not like you're definitely going to get Alzheimer's kind of thing, very specific.

So health but very niche. However, 25% of the population has this gene so it's not like this is such a rare gene. She said exactly this to me this morning, “I'm working on my program and it's going to have these modules. I need to really think it through.” We are right now in July, she goes, “I was thinking I was going to launch it in September but now I'm thinking December.”

I go, “No, Lauren. The goal is to get close to the money. If the money is not even going to be a thought until December, you're not building a real business. A real business makes money.” I said, “I'm calling it,” because she's a good friend so I could say this to her but I'm like, “I'm going to call your business a fake business. What I recommend you do is you go find people who have this gene mutation who want to learn more and get them to either you coach them, you sell them your product without even building it out yet, you tell them it's built out and maybe you have one piece of it but you learn from them. You tell me when you start making money.”

By the way, I don't know if people share this but if 5% to 10% of your course participants who buy your course actually finish your course, that's considered a great success. I think that is a bad outcome. If 100 people buy MiloTreeCart and only five of them use it, I don't think that's a good product. I'm speaking truth to power. I am saying, “Come on. I am seeing this over and over again.”

I get on calls with people a lot because I really want to learn from them and make connections and they say to me, “You know what, I'm worried because I tried selling a digital product and it didn't work.” Kind of that thing of like “Tech hates me. Everybody else is having success with digital products except me. Digital products hate me. It doesn't work for me. My audience doesn't like them. I can't do this.”

I go, “Digital products don't work for you yet because remember, you don't know what's going to work. Your job is to test a whole host of ideas.” This is one of the reasons why I think we get mesmerized with courses. You're going to invest six months in a product that you don't even know has legs that people want from you? So it is about iterating, testing, and doing what I call B- work, which is above average but it's doable. Get out there.

Andrea Liebross: I say that all the time, B- work that's turned in is better than A+ work that never gets turned in.

Jillian Leslie: And as a recovering perfectionist, I feel this every day. It is hard and I have a post-it that says B- work every day.

Andrea Liebross: It's so interesting. Tell me about the testing piece. I say this too. I always say to my clients, “Listen, this is like a science experiment. Let's treat everything you're doing as a science experiment. Let's test it out. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. That's okay, we'll just change the ingredients or the hypothesis or we'll change some pieces. Maybe our hypothesis has to change or our variables have to change,” if we go back to our sixth-grade science days.” Tell me about testing. What does that mean to you?

Jillian Leslie: Okay. Testing is I say exactly what you just said. You have a hypothesis so you have an expertise. Let's say it's architecture. Let's say you know how to remodel bathrooms. I see people making these mistakes over and over again, “Instead of course, I'm going to create an ebook on whatever it is, like super, super simple.”

Andrea Liebross: Could it be like the top 10 mistakes that people make when remodeling bathrooms? Could it be as simple as that?

Jillian Leslie: Absolutely. It's like go to Canva, go make it.

Andrea Liebross: Right, in Canva, it's like a five-page downloadable thing. Could that be it?

Jillian Leslie: Yeah. I might even do it shorter. It could be an opt-in where you offer it for free or it could be I recommend you sell it because when somebody opens their wallet and pays for something, they're making a bigger commitment.

Now, here's where the pieces fit together, hopefully you have a blog, somewhere you're getting to put out your vision of the world and hopefully you have a blog post about mistakes people make on their bathrooms and they can get this additional information that maybe isn't in the blog post that you are selling on that blog post for five dollars.

You're going to sell it multiple times, meaning you're not just going to put it and hide it at the bottom. But if this is a big post for you because people find your blog through this blog post, then you want a digital product to test out because then at the end when somebody, let's say, potentially buys this, you're going to reach out to that customer and you're going to be like, “Hey, saw you got this. Are you redesigning your bathroom?” and maybe sell your coaching.

Maybe sell your membership. Who knows? Maybe sell your course, your design services. This is how it works. But nobody buys your ebook. Now by the way, we challenged ourselves here at MiloTreeCart, and we took ChatGPT, everyone's saying, “Use ChatGPT,” so we're like, “You know what we're going to do, we're going to use ChatGPT to write an ebook to teach people how to use ChatGPT to write an ebook.” Super meta.

But guess what, we were able to write this ebook in under three hours start to finish and we break it down exactly how we do it and we have a 20-page ebook from it with images, we have a Canva template, the whole thing. If somebody wants it, reach out to me at and I'll send you a link to it. We sell it by the way for $27 but this was so easy.

With ChatGPT, you have no reason to not be putting your expertise out there and testing because you spent three hours on an ebook, you email it to your list let's say or you're hopefully doing everything, putting it in your blog post, emailing it to your list, sharing it on social media, I say going door to door, in Facebook groups or whatever just drumming up interests and it doesn't work, well guess what, I've spent three hours let's say creating it, maybe I've spent another couple of hours promoting it, and it's cricket to nothing. No problem because chances are I've got four other ideas to test.

That way, every product that you're creating is not so precious, it's not like a child of yours that somehow goes out into the world and gets rejected and then you get rejected. No, it's like you were saying, it's a science experiment. Over time, it's like dating. You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you meet that Prince Charming or Princess Charming. It's exactly the same. It's a numbers game.

Andrea Liebross: It totally is a numbers game. Okay, so you created the ebook for $27, you put it out there, what's the success, or is that all very personal?

Jillian Leslie: Oh, no, you mean like how are we selling it?

Andrea Liebross: How are you determining whether or not this was a successful endeavor to put this book out there for $27?

Jillian Leslie: Here's the thing, I say if you can get three sales, it's a success. There's something there because there's a big difference between people opting into your opt-in and never reading it. When people pay for something, they value it more.

By the way, this is what I would do is befriend those three customers and say to them, “Hey, I'll buy you a coffee. I'll give you a Starbucks gift card if you'll get on a call with me,” so that I can then ask you, “Okay, you wanted this ebook, well, where are you in your business?” I'm listening for what could I make next.

Let's say they have this great idea of another digital product that you could create, if you are the person who's designing the bathroom, maybe you have plans or maybe this person's like, “I just don't understand the layout or something,” and the guy or whomever, she goes, “Hey, I'm going to sell some plans. Would you be interested? If you would, I'll give you it at 50% off. Would you buy it? Would you buy it now? I'll give it to you as soon as I'm done.”

It's all about that creativity of like it's real people being real with real people. I think there's something so valuable in that, not pretending that you have all the answers or you have all the things made. You go hey with it so that you can call on these people when let's say you start your membership and you're like, “You're one of my VIPs. Do you want to join my membership?” because the goal is to love on these people to provide them so much value that they go talk to their friend who's redesigning her bathroom and say, “You got to work with this person.” This is where I believe in karma.

Andrea Liebross: I think you're right. I believe in it too. I just recorded another podcast episode with this woman named Sarah Centrella and we talked all about FutureBoards. She's not vision boards but she's FutureBoards and there's a lot of karma in there. It's like you're thinking about it and you're wanting something to happen from it, it will happen so you're putting it out there in the world, trusting, and believing that good things are going to come from it.

Jillian Leslie: But see, I would go a step further. I just read a tweet today and it was something, let's see, I might mangle it but it was something like, “Planning without action is just wishing.”

Andrea Liebross: Yes, yes, planning without action is just wishing. I always say you need an action plan, you need a time plan, and you need a belief plan. You can't have them in isolation. If you can just believe but have no action tied to it or time tied to it, it’s not going to happen. You need all three.

Jillian Leslie: Exactly, and I'm going to add something else, discomfort.

Andrea Liebross: Oh, yes, everything you always wanted, Jillian, is on the other side of uncomfortable.

Jillian Leslie: It is so true. It is so true. It's so funny, I was on this panel and we were talking about this exact same thing. I'm saying, “Go, befriend these people that are buying your product.” I'm talking about like three people. A woman on the panel goes, “Yeah, but I'm an introvert.” I'm an introvert by the way just so you know. But this woman was like, “I'm an introvert and this is really hard for the introverts to do.” I go, “You're totally right. However, there might be other ways like maybe you could DM them or do it through email. There are ways to be in contact with somebody.”

However, it might be worth it even if you are an introvert to push yourself to get on one call and see, you're not going to die. I can promise you, you're not going to die, it will be incredibly uncomfortable. But these are like muscles.

This is where I think the muscle to build a course, that's like an easy muscle even though it's hard, but it's not putting yourself out there, it's not getting rejected, it's not feeling awkward, it's like, “I can control the world where I build my course.” You can't control getting on an awkward call with somebody, pitching, or selling. Those are weird. It's weird.

Andrea Liebross: Yeah. It's like you've got to, I say, strengthen your follow-through muscle.

Jillian Leslie: Ooh, I like that.

Andrea Liebross: I think I have a downloadable on that, Jillian. Maybe I should monetize it.

Jillian Leslie: You should totally.

Andrea Liebross: Right? Make money.

Jillian Leslie: Absolutely, and again, it's really in the beginning, it's the signal of the money.

Andrea Liebross: It is. It is.

Jillian Leslie: Because it will signal you to go that way. What else can you build off of that that people want from you?

Andrea Liebross: So cool. You've got me thinking.

Jillian Leslie: In what way?

Andrea Liebross: All sorts of ways.

Jillian Leslie: Oh, good.

Andrea Liebross: Yes, all sorts of ways. Even in just my own business, I have tons of free content and this is something I've thought about but haven't taken any steps on. Here's a question, why do you think people are not doing this? What's getting in their way of saying, “Yes, I want MiloTreeCart, sign me up, I'm going for it.” What do you think is getting in their way?

Jillian Leslie: Fear, always, fear of rejection, fear that it's not going to work, which is rejection, which is ultimately love, that we’re inadequate. All those deep, deep, deep fears we all have.

Andrea Liebross: What do you think is really big? Like but none of that's true. That doesn't mean that someone doesn't love you because no one downloaded whatever.

Jillian Leslie: But this is where I say, again, if you can think of it as say at-bats or these are just like tests, experiments, they become less personal. We aren't our businesses, that's a really hard one. Here's a good example, Catch My Party, this happened the first year, it happens every year, weirdly, our traffic dies at Christmas.

You would think people are throwing all these parties and what? No way, because moms who are our users are busy. They're not planning their kid’s third birthday party. They want Christmas recipes but other than that, this is not the time. Every year, I get this lump in my throat, this pain in my stomach like, “We're going out of business. I am the worst entrepreneur ever.”

By the way, it's super weird, our traffic will dip and we come back the exact same day and it's usually January 3rd like clockwork. People are very consistent. You can see it in our traffic, like peaks right before say Halloween because people love our site for Halloween.

Anyway, but every year, I get this same feeling. Now, I know it's like when you get broken up with and the first time is so devastating, and then the second time is devastating but you know there's a part of you that's like, “I got through it the first time but I'm not sure I'm going to get through it the second time,” but that fourth time, it still hurts. So every year, I feel bad and I have to then retrain my thinking to go, “This happens every year. You feel this way every year. Let's try to put a little more faith in there. Let's try and not take it so personally,” and I can chip away at it.

But does it hurt every year? Absolutely. I think that it's about, again going back to discomfort and even when I say go be uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable every freaking day. It gets a little softer but it's not like it ever goes away but you signed up for this.

Andrea Liebross: Right. You just get to strengthen that uncomfortable muscle moving through uncomfortableness over and over again. It's like an opportunity to get stronger. It's like going to the gym.

Jillian Leslie: It is like going to the gym, it is. I think sales also is like putting yourself out there and it is so painful. I guess there are those natural salespeople. I feel like Tony Robbins, I don't know why he comes to mind, somehow it must be easy for him.

Andrea Liebross: Maybe not.

Jillian Leslie: Maybe not.

Andrea Liebross: No one ever says to me, “I'm great at sales. I love it.” No one says that.

Jillian Leslie: No, and again, there are ways to reframe it for ourselves. Again, have lots of testing so that each baby does not feel as precious. Two, really leaning into this idea that it's not about you. That has been life-changing for me.

I have a 16-year-old daughter and I cannot tell you how, I don't know if anybody has teens, especially a teen girl but my daughter's super sweet, she's a really good person, and yet totally self-absorbed, totally, to the point where she'll have like a stain on her shirt or pimple at her face and she thinks everybody's looking at her.

I won't have noticed it and I'm like, “I promise you nobody will notice because everybody's so obsessed with themselves.” I believe as a business owner, today talking to my friend, Lauren, who's building her program for people to get healthier, she kept saying to me “I.” “I think,” “I know,” “I want this to be this,” and I kept saying, “Lauren, take yourself out of it. You don't know what it's going to be yet. It's all about what somebody wants from you, not what you want to put on to somebody.”

With my daughter, I continually say, “Get out of yourself.” I know I shot something like a video or something and I showed it to her and I go, “Oh, I don't like it,” and she goes, “Mom, nobody's thinking about you.” I was like, “I love it. Thank you. Thank you. I so needed to hear that.” I love when she throws my wisdom right back at me when I am doing that.

If I could give everybody a piece of advice, nobody's thinking about you because we're too busy thinking about ourselves. That's perfect for sales. Lean into it being selling a service. I am providing something of value for you so that your life can be better and I'm just like somebody who's facilitating that. But you don't care about me, you care how I can help you. It takes the pressure down.

Andrea Liebross: It totally does. I was just going to say this is a great way to wrap up because it is not about you. It's just not about you as the salesperson, we'll call it, it's about the service that you're putting out there. I always say sometimes, “Hey, I would be remiss if I didn't offer you this because this is something I believe or I know I'm confident that can help you.” Me holding it in isn't helping you at all so I would be remiss if I didn't put it out there in the world.

Jillian Leslie: I think that is so powerful.

Andrea Liebross: So powerful. Last question, how would you define or what do you think thinking big really means?

Jillian Leslie: I think it's a lot of the themes that we've talked about. I think it's getting out of yourself. Here it is, by getting out of yourself, you allow the synchronicities to happen, whether it be you're not as caught up in yourself and you meet that person who's going to help you, whether you get out of yourself and an idea hits you or somebody says something that you wouldn't have necessarily thought about because you were so focused on you that all of a sudden, that's a good idea. I believe get out of yourself so that you can open yourself to get bigger.

Andrea Liebross: I love it. Get out of your own way. Start testing things. Okay, this has been awesome. Where can they find you, Jillian? You've already mentioned your website, two websites actually.

Jillian Leslie: My podcast, The Blogger Genius Podcast. I say a lot of things that get people mad because I feel like I'm speaking truth to power here and I'm going to call BS when I see it.

Andrea Liebross: Oh, you're like me.

Jillian Leslie: Yeah, I think that people, there's like that gauzy business building that I'm not a fan of, I'm all about go do this, go do this, go try this, and make it messy. So Blogger Genius Podcast is my podcast, which I've been doing for five years, and you're going to be a guest.

Also, you can check out MiloTreeCart by going to either,, whatever, you can find me on the socials, everywhere MiloTree, and email me. I answer everything or DM me on Instagram, but email me at I love answering questions.

Andrea Liebross: Awesome. Well, all those links are going to be in the show notes. Jillian, this has been so fun. You've really gotten me excited, I love it.

Jillian Leslie: Oh, I'm so glad.

Andrea Liebross: I love it. Thank you so much for being here. Listeners, I know so many of you have thought about something like this, doing something like this, making money in a different way. I hope that this is just the boost you need and the tool you need to make it happen. See you next time.

Didn't you find that interesting? Doesn't it make you want to think about, “What could I put out there on the internet and potentially make money while I sleep?” kind of thing? I know my brain was buzzing after that conversation and I just loved how she gave it the approach of, “Why not try this? We got nothing to lose. Let's see what people are interested in. Let's see how I can tweak this. Let's see how I can serve humanity.” Isn't that a great attitude?

Thinking big in this realm, you could go really big. You could think really big. Just the premise of how she and her husband developed their businesses, that was thinking big. If you have not gotten your hands on a copy of She Thinks Big: The Entrepreneurial Woman's Guide to Moving Past the Messy Middle and Into the Extraordinary, it's about time. Make sure that you head over to to get your copy.

Jillian, even though she had not read my book at the time of this recording, she kind of followed the formula. She shifted her mindset, she made a plan, she executed on it, and as she's found success, she's continued to adjust and grow. That's what it's all about. Go figure out what you can make money on the internet using a product like Milo Cart. Let's do this because now, my friends, is the time to level up. If it's not now, when? Let's do it. See you next week.

Hey, listening to podcasts is great. But you also have to do something to kick your business up a notch. You need to take some action, right? So go to and take the quiz. I guarantee you'll walk away knowing exactly what your next best step is to level up.

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I'm Andrea Liebross.

As a business and life coach specializing in helping unapologetically ambitious women entrepreneurs from a variety of industries level up their businesses and personal lives, I provide strategies to boost clarity, confidence, productivity, and profitability while teaching you how to transform obstacles into opportunities. I’m also a speaker, host of the Time to Level Up podcast, and author of the best selling book She Thinks Big: The Entrepreneurial Woman’s Guide to Moving Past the Messy Middle and into the Extraordinary. If you’re ready to drop the drama and achieve time, money, and energy freedom, you’ve come to the right place. It’s time to combine Big Thinking with solid systems to unleash your success. Let’s do this!